Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:32 pm Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of
the Library into a program that is not a library. "
And thus fork the code tree and strip the ability for commercial
entities to use the library aspects of OpenH323 in commercial
products. Once you make the copy and change the license to GPL
then those who copied it effectively have co-opted the code if
they so desire, and they can take the library from that point and
continue to improve it... and then if the LGPL original libary
adopts those fixes, it gets into messy areas regarding whether it
should convert to GPL itself...
In practice this does not happen for the same reason that splits don't
typically happen in GPL'd software (there have been some exceptions like
emacs and gcc/egcs, but in the case of egcs/gcc they have since merged).
Name a single library for which this has happened. The significance is
for (certainly in this case) linking, not because I would try to co-opt
OpenH323 into pure GPL.
Quote:
No, easier if YOU licensed the Asterisk code to be either GPL
*or* MPL, at the users discretion.
Even if I allowed Asterisk to be linked to OpenH323 (which I'm not
necessarily opposed to doing) that will not permit me to use certain other
GPL'd code (like the mp3 codec, as I described).
Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:38 pm Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
Incorrect, as the LGPL explicitly allows its contents to be redistributed
under GPL. That's why GPL code can always link with LGPL code, the result
being under GPL.
"3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General
Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the
Library. To do this, you must alter all the notices that refer to
this
License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public
License, version 2, instead of to this License. (If a newer
version than version 2 of the ordinary GNU General Public License
has appeared, then you can specify that version instead if you
wish.) Do not make any other change in these notices.
Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for
that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to
all subsequent copies and derivative works made from that
copy.
This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of
the Library into a program that is not a library. "
And thus fork the code tree and strip the ability for commercial
entities to use the library aspects of OpenH323 in commercial
products. Once you make the copy and change the license to GPL
then those who copied it effectively have co-opted the code if
they so desire, and they can take the library from that point and
continue to improve it... and then if the LGPL original libary
adopts those fixes, it gets into messy areas regarding whether it
should convert to GPL itself...
No, easier if YOU licensed the Asterisk code to be either GPL
*or* MPL, at the users discretion.
Greg
/********************************************************************
Greg Herlein Quicknet Technologies, Inc.
Member of Technical Staff 415-864-5225 x541
gherlein@quicknet.nethttp://www.quicknet.net
*********************************************************************/
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 12:40 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
A suggestion; I changed my open source license, stealing the one from the
ACE project instead of stealing the LGPL. It removes one restriction in
the LGPL that some of my developers have objected to.
> > using OpenH323, but I'd like to see if they'd be willing to make it
> > available under LGPL as well as MPL.
>
> I don't think that would help. Linking LGPL code againstGPL code
> would still virally infect the library, as I understand it.
Incorrect, as the LGPL explicitly allows its contents to be redistributed
under GPL. That's why GPL code can always link with LGPL code, the result
being under GPL.
Mark
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> Incorrect, as the LGPL explicitly allows its contents to be redistributed
> under GPL. That's why GPL code can always link with LGPL code, the result
> being under GPL.
"3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General
Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the
Library. To do this, you must alter all the notices that refer to
this
License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public
License, version 2, instead of to this License. (If a newer
version than version 2 of the ordinary GNU General Public License
has appeared, then you can specify that version instead if you
wish.) Do not make any other change in these notices.
Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for
that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to
all subsequent copies and derivative works made from that
copy.
This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of
the Library into a program that is not a library. "
And thus fork the code tree and strip the ability for commercial
entities to use the library aspects of OpenH323 in commercial
products. Once you make the copy and change the license to GPL
then those who copied it effectively have co-opted the code if
they so desire, and they can take the library from that point and
continue to improve it... and then if the LGPL original libary
adopts those fixes, it gets into messy areas regarding whether it
should convert to GPL itself...
No, easier if YOU licensed the Asterisk code to be either GPL
*or* MPL, at the users discretion.
Greg
/********************************************************************
Greg Herlein Quicknet Technologies, Inc.
Member of Technical Staff 415-864-5225 x541
gherlein@quicknet.nethttp://www.quicknet.net
*********************************************************************/
-----------------------------------------------------
OpenH323 mailing list - openh323@openh323.org
OpenH323 home page - http://www.openh323.org
Maintained by Equivalence Pty Ltd - http://www.equival.com.au
Using majordomo 1.94.1 - for information on commands,
send email to "majordomo@openh323.org" with the text
"info openh323" in the body of the message
-----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 1:36 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Mark,
Excuse me for being a bit thick, but I'm not sure exactly what the problem
is. Specifically, how does MPL/GPL/LGPL cause a problem? I don't see
where one forces you to do something that one of the others prohibits you
from doing.
> This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of
> the Library into a program that is not a library. "
>
> And thus fork the code tree and strip the ability for commercial
> entities to use the library aspects of OpenH323 in commercial
> products. Once you make the copy and change the license to GPL
> then those who copied it effectively have co-opted the code if
> they so desire, and they can take the library from that point and
> continue to improve it... and then if the LGPL original libary
> adopts those fixes, it gets into messy areas regarding whether it
> should convert to GPL itself...
In practice this does not happen for the same reason that splits don't
typically happen in GPL'd software (there have been some exceptions like
emacs and gcc/egcs, but in the case of egcs/gcc they have since merged).
Name a single library for which this has happened. The significance is
for (certainly in this case) linking, not because I would try to co-opt
OpenH323 into pure GPL.
> No, easier if YOU licensed the Asterisk code to be either GPL
> *or* MPL, at the users discretion.
Even if I allowed Asterisk to be linked to OpenH323 (which I'm not
necessarily opposed to doing) that will not permit me to use certain other
GPL'd code (like the mp3 codec, as I described).
Mark
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OpenH323 home page - http://www.openh323.org
Maintained by Equivalence Pty Ltd - http://www.equival.com.au
Using majordomo 1.94.1 - for information on commands,
send email to "majordomo@openh323.org" with the text
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-----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 1:57 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Not a copyright expert, but I think the MPL would allow one to make their
own branch, which was then under the LGPL. That is to say you can put the
LGPL on top of MPL, but not the other way around. Well, you still have to
comply with the LGPL, and give out source, so the MPL would be kind of
extraneous.
I think the major difference is that the MPL does not require that
derivatives give out source, and that derivatives must only acknowledge the
original owner. If you ever work on OS internals, you will often see
source files with multiple copyrights. Many files in OSF/1 for example are
copyright BSD, then IBM, then OSF. If you look at the manuals, you will see
all of the required notices. Indeed, I think it was the "copyright is much
larger than source" syndrome that motivated copyright keyword expansion in
RCS. If you actually worked at OSF, your source files would have @OSF in
them instead of the copyright. Source code customers got the fully expanded
copyright in the released source.
I don't see why you can't do the same. The MPL is very similar to the BSD
copyright and is less restrictive than LGPL. I think Stallman would say
that the LGPL protects the source from falling into proprietary hands,
where the MPL and BSD copyrights do not. He is probably right.
Ironically, I think this is why companies are more willing to GPL than MPL.
GPL means they never lose anything, where MPL allows someone to make
proprietary enhancements.
--Dean
Around 04:58 PM 1/10/2000 -0600, rumor has it that Mark Spencer said:
Quote:
> > using OpenH323, but I'd like to see if they'd be willing to make it
> > available under LGPL as well as MPL.
>
> I don't think that would help. Linking LGPL code againstGPL code
> would still virally infect the library, as I understand it.
Incorrect, as the LGPL explicitly allows its contents to be redistributed
under GPL. That's why GPL code can always link with LGPL code, the result
being under GPL.
Mark
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Using majordomo 1.94.1 - for information on commands,
send email to "majordomo@openh323.org" with the text
"info openh323" in the body of the message
-----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 1:57 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Around 05:32 PM 1/10/2000 -0600, rumor has it that Mark Spencer said:
Quote:
Even if I allowed Asterisk to be linked to OpenH323 (which I'm not
necessarily opposed to doing) that will not permit me to use certain other
GPL'd code (like the mp3 codec, as I described).
You can link LGPL with proprietary code without compromising the
proprietary code. I used to think that the MPL applies exclusively to the
source code, and doesn't affect the object code the way the GPL does (and
the LGPL does not). But re-reading NPL just now, I'm not so sure.
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 2:10 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
own branch, which was then under the LGPL. That is to say you can put the
LGPL on top of MPL, but not the other way around. Well, you still have to
comply with the LGPL, and give out source, so the MPL would be kind of
extraneous.
No, the MPL is infectious like the GPL:
3.1. Application of License.
The Modifications which You create or to which You contribute are
governed by the terms of this License, including without limitation
Section 2.2. The Source Code version of Covered Code may be distributed
only under the terms of this License or a future version of this License
released under Section 6.1, and You must include a copy of this License
with every copy of the Source Code You distribute. You may not offer or
impose any terms on any Source Code version that alters or restricts the
applicable version of this License or the recipients' rights hereunder.
However, You may include an additional document offering the additional
rights described in Section 3.5.
Quote:
I don't see why you can't do the same. The MPL is very similar to the BSD
copyright and is less restrictive than LGPL. I think Stallman would say
that the LGPL protects the source from falling into proprietary hands,
where the MPL and BSD copyrights do not. He is probably right.
I think Stallman would probably disagree with respect to the LGPL being
more restrictive than MPL. I have not heard his description of this
argument, but
Quote:
Ironically, I think this is why companies are more willing to GPL than MPL.
GPL means they never lose anything, where MPL allows someone to make
proprietary enhancements.
MPL and LGPL allow you to link to proprietary modules. They do not permit
you to distribute changes (as opposed to modules) under terms other than
their respective licenses. MPL and LGPL (and obviously the GPL) are all
true copylefts.
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 9:41 pm Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
In practice this does not happen for the same reason that splits don't
typically happen in GPL'd software (there have been some exceptions like
Well, this is a differnet case - and we could discuss it at
length sometime over beer (or wine, or rum, or whatever!).
Quote:
Even if I allowed Asterisk to be linked to OpenH323 (which I'm not
necessarily opposed to doing) that will not permit me to use certain other
GPL'd code (like the mp3 codec, as I described).
Proposed solution: you release Asterisk under both licenses and
let the user choose whcih to use! PHP does this, allowing an
Apache style free-bsd like license or the GPL at your own
discretion. You could do the same with Asterisk, allowing either
MPL or GPL at the users discretion - this would allow other
people to use the excellent characteristics of Asterisk with the
excellent OpenH323 stack to build cool things... and still allow
you to have your own cool version that is totally GPL that you
could link your mp3 code modules too.
I'm trying to be creative and get these two groups together!
Greg
/********************************************************************
Greg Herlein Quicknet Technologies, Inc.
Member of Technical Staff 415-864-5225 x541
gherlein@quicknet.nethttp://www.quicknet.net
*********************************************************************/
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2000 11:00 pm Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
Well, this is a differnet case - and we could discuss it at
length sometime over beer (or wine, or rum, or whatever!).
Sure :)
Quote:
Proposed solution: you release Asterisk under both licenses and
let the user choose whcih to use!
The MPL does not fit my perceived goals for Asterisk. I would have chosen
LGPL if I were wishing to permit proprietary additions/linkage to it.
Quote:
I'm trying to be creative and get these two groups together!
I would like to work with it too. If someone comes up with an
implementation, I will probably give my permission for it to be linked
specifically with the OpenH323 package provided I can find a way to do so
without opening myself up for linkage with proprietary products.
But in any case, I have yet to see someone implement a channel driver for
OpenH323, so at this point it's somewhat moot.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2000 2:30 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Quote:
What is the problem with proprietary additions or linkage? Are you not
using a proprietary PABX-style device (the Atlas, if I recall correctly)?
Are you not using G.723.1 (a proprietary codec)?
G.723.1 is a perfect example of how proprietary things interfere with the
software. While I can pass G.723.1 through Asterisk, I have not yet been
able to obtain the "rights" to include G.723.1 coders and decoders to
allow G.723.1 clients to interoperate with GSM clients, for example, in
the way that GSM and LPC10 and 16-bit PCM clients can communicate with one
another. The Atlas is not a proprietary product, any more than any other
piece of hardware. The protocols it uses are open and available.
(Incidently, it is *not* a PBX, but a "WAN hub", whatever that means.
Essentially I use it because it has a small phone switch and can handle a
variety of technologies including BRI, PRI, T1, Frame Relay, and T3).
I have put a great deal of effort into writing Asterisk, and if someone
wants to use it to benefit their company, that's great, but they're going
to have to share their "intellectual property" in the same way that I have
if they're going to do so. And I want to have the same rights to
redistribute their contributions as I have given them in mine.
Quote:
What is a "channel driver"? And why is one needed, how do you know it
doesn't exist, and have you asked anyone whether they have done it
already? =8^)!!
The channel driver is, like any other driver, a piece of code that
implements a specific set of functions (or subset) that Asterisk expects
of all channels. Currently there are drivers for the following sorts of
telephony channels:
* Adtran VoFR
* Quicknet PhoneJack
* Full duplex sound card
* Rockwell Chipset VoiceModems (incomplete -- half duplex)
* Voice over IP using IAX
Note that all the channel drivers so far have been in C, although I have
used a single other C++ module in order to be sure that you *could* load
C++ modules into Asterisk without a problem. Unfortunately, I don't know
C++ and don't think I could do a good job writing the channel driver
(although I can explain the C API and work with anyone that would like to
try to get OpenH323 working with it).
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2000 5:56 am Post subject: [openh323] Re: [Asterisk] Clients for VoIP
Both the MPL and the LGPL are not real copylefts,
because they both permit the addition of modules which have
additional restrictions. Even non-free modules can be added.
However, the LGPL permits one important thing that the MPL does not
permit: linking with GPL-covered code. For this reason, if you want
to use a license that permits linking with non-free modules, I
recommend the use of the LGPL rather than the MPL.
Alternatively, use the disjunction of the MPL and the GPL. That
license permits linking with non-free modules and with GPL-covered
modules. Netscape uses such a license for Javascript.
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