Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
Sorry that this is a new thread! But the one over the conference did not
seem correct for my statements. Please note that I am fairly new to
Asterisk about 10 months and only about the same for Linux! With very
little known about telephones. I come from the Microsoft Network
Engineering Group. (MSCE, Citrix, Novell (from 2.1 to 5.0) I have been
working with networks for more then 16 years now! So there is some
information about Linux has filter in during that time. But I am what you
call the normal IT person that would be in charge of the new companies
Internet/Software phone switch! I lost allot of time due to there is no real
documentation. I almost just pulled the plug on this installation due to
this! I found out about the Sunday night call this morning! I don't check
my emails during the weekend. Most IT people leave work and hope to forget
it during the weekend.
1) First problem is assuming Linux or FreeBSD or any Unix clone know-how!
There too many distro's that Asterisk is being used for that this gets
clouded! Let me try to explain! Updates, CVS, Networking all play a part
in getting Asterisk correctly up and running. Without these covered in some
way will put a person at least 2 month behind! There is many ways to
install and put files in Linux. /urs/src/ /home/urs/scr /urs/local/scr
just a few of the starting points I have found between RH 9, Fedora,
Slackware, Debian. FreeBSD I have never tried and frankly feel that we need
to get to a point that we say this works on this and only this distro! We
should tread this product like a server and just have the server do
Asterisk! Plain and simple lets get this down to basic's. What does a
server do! Well you will need to have the following installed libraries.
This is almost not stated any place. You just say pick your favorite Linux
build and work from that! (This is wrong due to most come configured with
either kde or gnome one them).
2) This should be put in a easy to read format! With many examples not just
do GotoIF(Condition?label1:label2) This almost drives someone nuts!
Remember we are trying to install this product for the first time! Not
assuming they have programming skills! The samples when we install asterisk
and make samples have good information. But it does not explain logic that
is needed. We need to start listing why we do something! This will allow
people to learn the rules quicker.
3) Index of telephone terms should be one of the first things we need to
state. Maybe a good place to go to the back and go through the terms we
need. TDM, VoIp, GSM Ulaw, Alaw g.729, ztdummy,zapata after the first few
pages we are again over loaded with new terms. So we need to have a good
section for the terms.
4) Maybe we should have 2 documents. One for the newbie which is what is
really needed now! 2nd is for advanced users! Lets please the first one
first! Newbie is what we need to start addressing. In the very first pages
we need to have links to the Wiki, (It took me 2 months to understand what
people were saying go to the wiki) examples digiums web pages, How to get on
the mailing list, how to go to the IRC all this needs to be explained. Also
the correct place for getting the CVS's or RPM what ever is needed to get
started.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
\
\____\_ Ariel Batista
/ /
/ Avionica, Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------
abatista@avionica.com
Ph: 786-544-1114
Fx: 305-574-0212
Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 08:44, Ariel Batista wrote:
Quote:
Sorry that this is a new thread! But the one over the conference did not
seem correct for my statements. Please note that I am fairly new to
Asterisk about 10 months and only about the same for Linux! With very
little known about telephones. I come from the Microsoft Network
Engineering Group. (MSCE, Citrix, Novell (from 2.1 to 5.0) I have been
working with networks for more then 16 years now! So there is some
information about Linux has filter in during that time. But I am what you
call the normal IT person that would be in charge of the new companies
Internet/Software phone switch! I lost allot of time due to there is no real
documentation. I almost just pulled the plug on this installation due to
this! I found out about the Sunday night call this morning! I don't check
my emails during the weekend. Most IT people leave work and hope to forget
it during the weekend.
I think you should realize that you have lived in your own echo chamber
for what is normal. While I don't know if it is normal, just about every
person I know that is in IT is available through the weekend as well.
The difference is that we may not be monitoring our work mail, we are
monitoring some email address. Then again, about every one I spend very
much time with are hosting providers of sometime and we all end up
updating stuff on our private sites through the weekend as well.
Quote:
1) First problem is assuming Linux or FreeBSD or any Unix clone know-how!
There too many distro's that Asterisk is being used for that this gets
clouded! Let me try to explain! Updates, CVS, Networking all play a part
in getting Asterisk correctly up and running. Without these covered in some
way will put a person at least 2 month behind! There is many ways to
install and put files in Linux. /urs/src/ /home/urs/scr /urs/local/scr
just a few of the starting points I have found between RH 9, Fedora,
Slackware, Debian. FreeBSD I have never tried and frankly feel that we need
to get to a point that we say this works on this and only this distro! We
should tread this product like a server and just have the server do
Asterisk! Plain and simple lets get this down to basic's. What does a
server do! Well you will need to have the following installed libraries.
This is almost not stated any place. You just say pick your favorite Linux
build and work from that! (This is wrong due to most come configured with
either kde or gnome one them).
There are books already written for using CVS, distro support, and any
number of normal linux usage. I think our current scope of covering
asterisk will be more than enough. I have an emense amount of shelf
space devoted to unix topics and programming language. I don't need
another book to cover the simple things about linux in detail just to
get the need information. We don't need to specify a specific distro. I
doubt everyone here would agree to what is the right distro, and we need
everyone here to contribute, not argue.
Quote:
2) This should be put in a easy to read format! With many examples not just
do GotoIF(Condition?label1:label2) This almost drives someone nuts!
Remember we are trying to install this product for the first time! Not
assuming they have programming skills! The samples when we install asterisk
and make samples have good information. But it does not explain logic that
is needed. We need to start listing why we do something! This will allow
people to learn the rules quicker.
Please check out what has currently been written. There is already a
fair amount written, and I think we have good examples in the sections
that need examples.
Quote:
4) Maybe we should have 2 documents. One for the newbie which is what is
really needed now! 2nd is for advanced users! Lets please the first one
first! Newbie is what we need to start addressing. In the very first pages
we need to have links to the Wiki, (It took me 2 months to understand what
people were saying go to the wiki) examples digiums web pages, How to get on
the mailing list, how to go to the IRC all this needs to be explained. Also
the correct place for getting the CVS's or RPM what ever is needed to get
started.
Maybe I'm not on track with the rest of the intent anymore, but I think
we are striving for deadtree documentation. I don't think we will go for
writting two books.
Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
Comments inline
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-doc-admin@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-doc-
admin@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Batista
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:44 AM
To: Asterisk Docs
Subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
1) First problem is assuming Linux or FreeBSD or any Unix clone know-how!
Actually, that MUST be assumed. I have seen 100's of books of how to use
Linux. If you are new to Linux, I think you need to learn that first. The
book will be large enough to begin with.
Quote:
There too many distro's that Asterisk is being used for that this gets
clouded! Let me try to explain! Updates, CVS, Networking all play a part
in getting Asterisk correctly up and running. Without these covered in
some
way will put a person at least 2 month behind!
The intent of the book is to learn Asterisk, not Linux. If you need to
learn Linux, buy an Intro to Linux book.
Quote:
There is many ways to
install and put files in Linux. /urs/src/ /home/urs/scr /urs/local/scr
just a few of the starting points I have found between RH 9, Fedora,
Slackware, Debian. FreeBSD I have never tried and frankly feel that we
need
to get to a point that we say this works on this and only this distro! We
should tread this product like a server and just have the server do
Asterisk! Plain and simple lets get this down to basic's. What does a
server do! Well you will need to have the following installed libraries.
This is almost not stated any place. You just say pick your favorite Linux
build and work from that! (This is wrong due to most come configured with
either kde or gnome one them).
I agree we need to get down to basic's, but again, not in the form of Linux.
This is a book about Asterisk. Second, why are you using KDE or Gnome on a
server?
Quote:
2) This should be put in a easy to read format! With many examples not
just
do GotoIF(Condition?label1:label2) This almost drives someone nuts!
Remember we are trying to install this product for the first time! Not
assuming they have programming skills!
I am *NOT* a programmer, but I think any competent IT person needs to
understand what a variable is.
Quote:
The samples when we install
asterisk
and make samples have good information. But it does not explain logic that
is needed. We need to start listing why we do something! This will allow
people to learn the rules quicker.
I honestly would prefer to stay away from the sample configuration files
that come with Asterisk. I think they are a great reference, but too many
people assume they are meant to be plugged in and used to have an Asterisk
system running in 10 minutes. Starting from blank configuration files is
the best way to learn and not get confused (IMHO).
Quote:
3) Index of telephone terms should be one of the first things we need to
state. Maybe a good place to go to the back and go through the terms we
need. TDM, VoIp, GSM Ulaw, Alaw g.729, ztdummy,zapata after the first few
pages we are again over loaded with new terms. So we need to have a good
section for the terms.
I agree that we should have a terms section, but it seems appropriate for an
appendix (we have a lot of appendices as it is now, but hopefully these
won't seem so large once we actually write some of the chapters).
Quote:
4) Maybe we should have 2 documents. One for the newbie which is what is
really needed now! 2nd is for advanced users! Lets please the first one
first! Newbie is what we need to start addressing. In the very first pages
we need to have links to the Wiki, (It took me 2 months to understand what
people were saying go to the wiki) examples digiums web pages, How to get
on
the mailing list, how to go to the IRC all this needs to be explained.
Also
the correct place for getting the CVS's or RPM what ever is needed to get
started.
Let's just worry about getting one book done first :) As for taking two
months for what people were talking about with the Wiki... I probably would
have just asked what it was if I didn't understand.
We can combine the information from all sources to make sure we cover as
many bases as possible. A references section seems to be appropriate, but
we are supposed to be writing out own manual. I've been avoiding looking at
anything from the Wiki because of this. It's not that I'm not trying to
learn Asterisk, but I just don't want to be regurgitating words that someone
else already wrote (unless they submit it to the project on their own).
Thank you for your thoughts though! There is some good idea's in there, but
I don't think we should hold someone's hand all the way through. We have to
assume that someone is competent enough in some aspect of computers to build
from. If all books started from the absolute beginning, there'd be a lot of
wasted time writing information that is easily accessible by other means.
I'm not Linux *or* Asterisk guru... I'm simply trying to make some time to
help and organize a project. It's going to be up to some of the more
advanced users of Asterisk to help me out. I'm still learning too :)
Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 14:37, Leif Madsen wrote:
Quote:
Comments inline
My comments are gonna be inline as well... Let's see if I can confuse
everyone by writing back to everyone at once. :-)
Quote:
> -----Original Message-----
> 1) First problem is assuming Linux or FreeBSD or any Unix clone know-how!
Actually, that MUST be assumed. I have seen 100's of books of how to use
Linux. If you are new to Linux, I think you need to learn that first. The
book will be large enough to begin with.
Yes, I completely agree. This book is not going to be a "learn linux
and asterisk at the same time" kind of book... it's going to be more of
a "Learning Asterisk for people who already know how to get around in
Linux" book. If you'd like to write a "Here's all the Linux you'll need
to know to start using Asterisk" book, be my guest. We've already got
more than enough material to cover, without teaching people how to use
Linux.
Quote:
> There too many distro's that Asterisk is being used for that this gets
> clouded! Let me try to explain! Updates, CVS, Networking all play a part
> in getting Asterisk correctly up and running. Without these covered in
> some
> way will put a person at least 2 month behind!
As I see it, we'll mention a few of the common Linux distributions that
are known to work with Asterisk. And we'll explain how to check out the
latest version of Asterisk from CVS. But we're not going to into how to
setup networking under Linux. If you don't know how to setup networking
under Linux, go buy a book or use google *BEFORE* you even think about
setting up Asterisk. Would you expect an Apache book to explain how to
setup networking and/or which distribution to use? Of course not.
If it takes someone two months to learn Linux basics before they start
learning Asterisk, then it's two months well spent. People *should not*
get the impression that they can setup an Asterisk system overnight with
no previous experience... it just ain't gonna happen.
Quote:
The intent of the book is to learn Asterisk, not Linux. If you need to
learn Linux, buy an Intro to Linux book.
Well said. 'Nuff said.
Quote:
> There is many ways to
> install and put files in Linux. /urs/src/ /home/urs/scr /urs/local/scr
> just a few of the starting points I have found between RH 9, Fedora,
> Slackware, Debian. FreeBSD I have never tried and frankly feel that we
> need
> to get to a point that we say this works on this and only this distro! We
> should tread this product like a server and just have the server do
> Asterisk! Plain and simple lets get this down to basic's. What does a
> server do! Well you will need to have the following installed libraries.
> This is almost not stated any place. You just say pick your favorite Linux
> build and work from that! (This is wrong due to most come configured with
> either kde or gnome one them).
I agree we need to get down to basic's, but again, not in the form of Linux.
This is a book about Asterisk. Second, why are you using KDE or Gnome on a
server?
Yes, we'll cover some basics such as required librarires, where the
files get installed, etc. in the installation chapter. But again, we're
writing this assuming that the reader knows how to manage his own
system.
Quote:
> 2) This should be put in a easy to read format! With many examples not
> just
> do GotoIF(Condition?label1:label2) This almost drives someone nuts!
> Remember we are trying to install this product for the first time! Not
> assuming they have programming skills!
I am *NOT* a programmer, but I think any competent IT person needs to
understand what a variable is.
We will definitely explain what a variable is, and hold their hand
through the first extensions.conf chapter. I want that chapter to be so
blatently obvious that 60-70% of readers will just gloss over it and go
on to the next chapter. But yes, the reader should have some basic
understanding of programming logic.
Quote:
> The samples when we install
> asterisk
> and make samples have good information. But it does not explain logic that
> is needed. We need to start listing why we do something! This will allow
> people to learn the rules quicker.
I honestly would prefer to stay away from the sample configuration files
that come with Asterisk. I think they are a great reference, but too many
people assume they are meant to be plugged in and used to have an Asterisk
system running in 10 minutes. Starting from blank configuration files is
the best way to learn and not get confused (IMHO).
I agree that we should start from a blank extensions.conf file and work
from there. At one time, I had the first extensions.conf chapter with a
bunch of *really* simple examples and copious explanation, but someone I
seemed to have misplaced the file before it got checked into CVS.
Blitzrage, did I happen to send it to you? (It would have been called
extensions2.xml)
Quote:
> 3) Index of telephone terms should be one of the first things we need to
> state. Maybe a good place to go to the back and go through the terms we
> need. TDM, VoIp, GSM Ulaw, Alaw g.729, ztdummy,zapata after the first few
> pages we are again over loaded with new terms. So we need to have a good
> section for the terms.
I agree that we should have a terms section, but it seems appropriate for an
appendix (we have a lot of appendices as it is now, but hopefully these
won't seem so large once we actually write some of the chapters).
There's already a glossary in the back of the book. Now we just need
people to fill it up with terms!
Quote:
> 4) Maybe we should have 2 documents. One for the newbie which is what is
> really needed now! 2nd is for advanced users! Lets please the first one
> first! Newbie is what we need to start addressing. In the very first pages
> we need to have links to the Wiki, (It took me 2 months to understand what
> people were saying go to the wiki) examples digiums web pages, How to get
> on
> the mailing list, how to go to the IRC all this needs to be explained.
> Also
> the correct place for getting the CVS's or RPM what ever is needed to get
> started.
Maybe there's a need for a second document... I don't expect this book
to be perfect for both newbies and gurus. There's no way we can make
everybody happy. So again, we've decided to limit the scope of the
documentation to people who already have *some* Linux experience, but
might be new to Asterisk (and telecom in general, from the other emails
I've received).
Quote:
Let's just worry about getting one book done first :) As for taking two
months for what people were talking about with the Wiki... I probably would
have just asked what it was if I didn't understand.
Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 2:18 am Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 16:00, Jared Smith wrote:
Quote:
I agree that we should start from a blank extensions.conf file and work
from there. At one time, I had the first extensions.conf chapter with a
bunch of *really* simple examples and copious explanation, but someone I
seemed to have misplaced the file before it got checked into CVS.
Blitzrage, did I happen to send it to you? (It would have been called
extensions2.xml)
Look at Jan 15th. It should be in the archive. If not, I'll post it for
you.
Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 3:28 pm Post subject: [Asterisk-doc] Future of asterisk Document!
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 20:18, Steven Critchfield wrote:
Quote:
Look at Jan 15th. It should be in the archive. If not, I'll post it for
you.
Actually, I had a more advanced copy than that... one where I started
with a painfully simple extensions.conf file and slowly built upon it,
explaining each step along the way. I burned it to CD when I changed
jobs, and then promptly misplaced the CD. I'll keep looking for it...
in the meantime, it might just be easier to rewrite it.
For now though, I'll at least check in that file from January 15th, to
give us something a little bit better to work from. Thanks Critch for
helping me find that... I spent a few minutes looking for it the other
day, but got distracted before I could find it.
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